Reveladora entrevista de la mentalidad de un jihadista (perdón por el pareado)

No dejen de leer, aunque sea un poco larga, esta magnífica entrevista en la revista Prospect a un tal Hassan Butt, un paquistaní británico en las filas del Islam más radical. Es totalmente esclarecedora, sobre todo por la claridad con que se expresa acerca de sus fines y de sus medios. Está escrito, como estaban escritos los planes de Hitler en su Mein Kampf. Si nos engañamos es porque no sabemos leer o porque hemos perdido la costumbre de leer lo que interesa.

Vean algunos ejemplos de sus razonamientos (o algunos fragmentos de su experiencia):

El siguiente me recuerda los datos de la dudosa "lealtad" hacia el Reino Unido de bastantes de sus musulmanes, tal como vimos hace unos días:

"Butt: They have no covenant. As far as I'm concerned, the Islamic hukum (order) that I follow, says that a person has no covenant whatsoever with the country in which they were born.
Taseer: Do they have an allegiance to the country?
Butt: No, none whatsoever. Even the person who has a covenant has no allegiance, he just agrees not to threaten the life, honour, wealth, property, mind, and so on, of the citizens around him.
Taseer: Your argument is based on these people being “British,” so don't they necessarily have some loyalty to Britain?
Butt: No, that's what I'm saying. They have no loyalty whatsoever; they have no allegiance to the government.
Taseer: Perhaps not the government, but to the country?
Butt: To the country, no.
Taseer: Do you feel some?
Butt: I feel absolutely nothing for this country. I have no problem with the British people… but if someone attacks them, I have no problem with that either.
Taseer: Who do you have allegiance to?
Butt: My allegiance is to Allah, his Shari’a, his way of life. Whatever he dictates as good is good, whatever as bad is bad."

Sobre su experiencia de conversión, muy interesante lo del "lenguaje que yo entendía" (tomen nota las iglesias cristianas):

Butt: I was 17 when I really started practising.
Taseer: Was it through a mosque?
Butt: No. It was through individuals whom I met, who started speaking a language that I understood, who went beyond just the prayer. I understand the huge importance of that.

Sobre el objetivo final de la "orden" a la que pertenece, la cosa también está muy clara (Patrick Sookhdeo lo contaba hace nada muy claramente, por otra parte--via Melanie Phillips):

Taseer: What is the philosophy of Hizb ut-Tahrir?
Butt: The idea is that Muslims in Britain need to keep to their Islamic identity and work for the re-establishment of an Islamic caliphate, or khalifah as they would say, based upon the first four caliphates of Islam.
Taseer: Where?
Butt: In the Muslim countries. That is one of the differences I had with them.
Taseer: You would like to see the caliphate here too?
Butt: Absolutely. How could we restrict something that initially started in Medina but then spread through the entire Muslim world?
Taseer: Would everyone have to be a Muslim, or would it work within our existing society?
Butt: No, it’s a structure of law and order…
Taseer: A central authority?
Butt: A central Islamic authority. Whether the people are Muslim or not is irrelevant.
Se ve como un posible y futuro terrorista, y, como decía la película, he's proud of it, argumentándolo a partir del entendimiento que tiene el Corán del concepto de terror:

Butt: I would agree to being called a radical and one day I may even be called a terrorist, if Allah permits me. That is something it would be an honour to be called.
Taseer: Surely, even in an Islamic context, that can't be a positive label?
Butt: There is a speech by the Prophet in which he says: Allah gave me five things. One of them was the power to strike fear, to strike terror into the heart of the enemy from a mile's distance, and this was a reference to a battle he had commenced. The way the warriors had prepared themselves was so terrifying that the enemy didn’t even turn up to the battle. Besides that, in the Koran the word irhab is the root word for terror in Islam, and irhabiyun is the word for terrorist. Allah mentions the word in the Koran many times—the one who strikes terror into their hearts is an irhabiyun. If I could have that title Islamically then I would be more than happy to take it and be proud of it. But unfortunately, I haven't reached that level yet.

Aviso para navegantes: no les entendemos, no conseguimos entender su mentalidad; quizá tenga razón:

Taseer: In the past you have demonstrated the failures of British security. Has it improved?
Butt: It's funny you asked me that. I have been reading a book—Jihad by Gilles Keppel—not for the sake of learning anything, but to see whether these people have understood us. In the past, and I'm talking 100, 200 years ago, the reason the British were successful in destroying Islamic government or the Ottoman caliph is that they actually lived among them and they made an effort to understand what they wanted to destroy. Now they're trying to understand something that is a theory. It's in my mind, it's in peoples' minds, but it's not a practical manifestation of the system that we aspire towards, so it's very hard for them to contain it. As a result of that, the security services have lost their ability to analyse how Muslims think—I mean real Muslims, the ones who are not ashamed to talk about their opinions and to express them in public. That is why they will lose this war on terror, because guys like Keppel don’t understand us.
Al final, se trata de la autodefensa de los musulmanes, pues están siendo atacados en todas partes; pero vean lo que entiende por ataques, lo que nosotros entenderíamos por discusión pública libre (como, por ejemplo, opinar que el Islam trata poco equitativamente a las mujeres):

Taseer: Where do you see Muslims under attack?
Butt: Everywhere. It's not limited to just one place. Wherever Muslims are they are under attack and until they start viewing themselves like that, they will always remain an inferior nation.
Taseer: And why are they under attack?
Butt: If they're not being attacked physically, they are being attacked mentally. They are being told that their way of life is backward, they’re being told that for women to cover themselves is against human rights, they're being told that to cut the hand of the thief, which Allah ordains in the Koran, is outdated. They're being told that their way of life is inferior and bad and should not be followed. And they're often stripped of their identity, as they were in Bosnia: Muslim by name only, no culture whatsoever. That is still a war as a far as I'm concerned.
Su finalidad en la vida, el martirio, claro:

Taseer: You're looking forward to death?
Butt: Absolutely. As long as it's done properly. I'm terrified of dying normally, growing old, grey.
Taseer: You don't see that as a selfish impulse, to care for nothing but your own salvation?
Butt: Ultimately, that's everybody's. The mother loves the child more than anybody. But even she, on the day of reckoning, will not look at the child; Allah says she will think of herself, solely of herself. Ultimately, that is what it's about: I'm going into my grave, you're going into your grave, everyone is ultimately going into their grave. In this duniya (world), we have as much as we can want, but ultimately it is for the benefit of your soul. It is the only point in Islam where an individual is actually allowed to be selfish.

Y ya saben, como decía aquél, sigan leyendo. No tiene ningún desperdicio.

Via Instapundit.


  • Indispensable para incautos seguidores de la alianza de Civilizaciones y mar de injusticias:

    Taseer: Coming back to the youth, are they angry?

    Butt: Many are from quite wealthy families, as I am.

    Taseer: So you don't see this rise of extremism among British Muslims as rooted in economic disadvantage?

    Butt: I think that's a myth, pushed forward by so-called moderate Muslims. If you look at the 19 hijackers on 9/11, which one of them didn't have a degree? Muhammad Atta was an engineer [he was actually an architect and town planner] at the highest level. His Hamburg lecturer said, “I didn't have a student like him.” These people are not deprived or uneducated; they are the peak of society. They've seen everything there is to see and they are rejecting it outright because there is nothing for them. Most of the people I sit with are in fact university students, they come from wealthy families. Islam caters for everybody: the economically deprived and the most educated person. It doesn't make any difference: the message will still be the same. But this myth—that the only reason these people go for Islam is because they have nothing else to do—is a lie and a fabrication. People who say that should be very careful. Even Osama himself, Sheikh Osama, came from wealth that I could never dream of and he gave it all up because it had no value to him. Who can say he came from an economically deprived condition? It's rubbish.

    Taseer: Clearly you have a sense of an enemy. What is the face of this enemy? Is it America?

    Butt: At the moment, America.

    Taseer: Who else is part of it?

    Butt: You have an apparent enemy and a hidden enemy.

    Taseer: The apparent enemy?

    Butt: The American enemy. As far as I'm concerned, you have America spearheading the attack, followed by Britain, France, the EU, the UN, the World Bank, the IMF…

    By Blogger yeda, at 7/31/2005 7:12 p. m.  

  • Sunt lacrimae rerum... los venerables pedruscos de Oxford lloran ante la que se les viene encima.

    Otro Nostálgico

    By Anonymous Anónimo, at 7/31/2005 10:50 p. m.  

  • no les entendemos, no conseguimos entender su mentalidad;
    Me extra�a que eso sea as�, yo les entiendo perfectamente, s� lo que quieren y d�nde se fundamentan.
    Y creo que los intelectuales occidentales mayoritariamente lo entienden, t� Wonka lo entiendes, otra cosa diferente es que no se quiera hablar claro porque no es pol�ticamente correcto y uno se arriesga a perder honor y fortuna.

    By Blogger José, at 8/01/2005 9:44 a. m.  

  • Este comentario ha sido eliminado por un administrador del blog.

    By Blogger Wonka, at 8/01/2005 9:49 a. m.  

  • Jmaria, en parte es lo que dices, pero en parte no. Creo que él se refiere a que a nosotros nos cuesta mucho pensar en términos de una religión como modo de vida completo, como algo que orienta toda (o la mayor parte de) tu vida, como algo auténticamente vivido. La mayor parte de los occidentales ya no sabemos qué es eso y nos cuesta mucho hacer nuestra esa vivencia (la Erlebnis de Dilthey), sacando, claro, las pertinentes consecuencias. Afortunadamente, textos como el de este islamista nos ayudan.

    By Blogger Wonka, at 8/01/2005 10:07 a. m.  

  • Muy interesante. Especialmente la parte en la que habla del 'ataque' que los musulmanes sufren por parte de los occidentales. Creo que ahí está la clave de todo este asunto. Así lo intenté expresar en mi blog y sólo conseguí que 'los de siempre' se mofen de mí.

    Los occidentales estamos desafiando el sistema de valores morales religiosos, tanto de los católicos como de los musulmanes. Ahí es donde les duele; tienen miedo de perder una situación de privilegio (sobre las mujeres) y lo sienten como un ataque.

    By Blogger Fernando a.k.a. De Ferre, at 8/01/2005 11:59 a. m.  

  • Y enlazando con el último comentario, yo digo que el terrorismo islámico siempre actuará, haya o no guerra en Irak, exista o no Palestina, pues el conflicto que ellos plantean es que nuestra mera existencia es una provocación. Así que justificaciones del terrorismo tipo pobreza, el colonialismo, Bush, Israel, etc, simplemente retrasan la solución del problema.

    Lo que dices Wonka es preocupante, ¿los intelectuales no se ponen en la piel del otro o intentan experimentar el entorno o una situación para entender? eso quizá explique su despiste.

    By Blogger José, at 8/01/2005 12:31 p. m.  

  • Sin embargo, también deberíamos fijarnos en el fanatismo de otras religiones (cristiana, judía, etc...).

    Y por cierto, ¿habéis leído el Antiguo Testamento? Es el texto sagrado oficial de dos religiones (judía y cristiana). ¿Qué os parecen las crueldades que aparecen en él?

    By Anonymous Anónimo, at 2/20/2006 9:30 a. m.  

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